Ep. 56: Hal Leonard Choral: LIVE at ACDA!!

Welcome, everybody.

Today, it’s a special live episode of Selling Sheet Music.

We’re here at the ACDA Choral Conference in Dallas.

We’ve got Scott Harris, Head of Education and Self Publishing, Stacey Nordmeyer, General Manager for Choral Publications, and Luke Talen, Creative Director of Choral Publications.

Why don’t we start by having y’all explain what those words mean?

Good call.

Why don’t I start?

Creative Director.

So I’m involved a lot of product development and editorial and just a mishmash of other things, creating relationships with writers, getting things out the door.

So it’s a big process and a lot of different things, but it’s a lot of fun.

Awesome.

As General Manager, I’m involved with generally overseeing of the entire department on the sacred music side, community choir, and school music side.

We’re closely with Luke and our other editorial team on product developments and some marketing things.

And just the overall focus of the entire department.

Yeah.

And as Head of Education, Self Publishing, it’s content job.

So my job is to make sure that we’re getting content for the choral area, our instrumental department, our school methods, and our elementary curriculum, in those four separate areas to help guide and shape and optimize revenue and make good decisions about the content that we’re producing.

And then I also continue to oversee our Arrange Me program as well, the self-publishing side.

So slightly different job, content in a different way.

But yeah, those kind of five areas is where I fall in.

I’ve got the honor of working with our choral team in addition to the other teams as well.

Likewise.

Yeah, yeah.

So how big is the team?

It’s not just the three of you.

There’s a lot more people at Hal.

What does that team look like?

For the choral department, there are five of us who are based down at Milwaukee.

So we have Luke and myself, we have senior editor Jeff Reeves, and choral editors Patricia Wozinski and Zachary Moore.

And then based in Austin, Texas, we have our director of Church Choral Publications, Joseph Martin.

And then in Indianapolis, overseeing our Shawnee School, Ray Gilpin.

So we’re a good-sized team.

Yeah, absolutely.

Well, I don’t know if we’ve done it enough times for this to be a tradition, but we did have this live episode two years ago.

The ACDA conference happens every other year.

Last time we did this, and Luke and Scott, you were both there for that.

Last year, last time we did this, we started by talking about just the overall perception of self-published music in the choral community.

And so I’m wondering over the last two years, do you think that’s changed at all?

I think it’s been, it’s certainly grown.

It’s grown quite a lot in the last couple of years.

We’ve seen a couple of stars rise in the last couple of years, one in particular, Mary Ann Muglia.

She has done so much good work and used ArrangeMe to get it out there and then we’ve started to publish.

We published at least one of her things on the print side.

So I think it’s proving to be a welcome channel for choral composers and arrangers to get their music out there, get it shared and develop a following, and then the sky’s the limit.

I mean, it’s really what ArrangeMe was designed to do, is to provide a platform for your independent self-publisher and then, gosh, we’re pulling stuff into print on the Hal Leonard side all the time.

Yeah, so trying to find new voices in as many ways as we can and ArrangeMe has proved to be really valuable, especially in the choral space.

Would you say that’s sort of the new path into the industry now?

Like get out there and self-publish and then get picked up by one of the publishers?

Yeah, I mean, I think this is mirroring what’s happening on the record side too, where this has been happening for years and years on the record side, where an artist comes in and instead of getting a record deal right away, they’re following, they’re developing a following locally, groupies, all the things, and then doing live shows and all that.

I don’t know how many choral groups there are, but I’m sure there are.

They’re all here, so.

They’re all here, 10,000 choral groups.

But yes, Arrange Me is certainly a path and an important one.

Self-publishing is becoming super valuable to establishing your own voice.

You get to do what you want to do, and curate the stuff that you feel good about, confident about.

You never know, especially if you’re willing to do the work, to network, and market, and promote your own stuff and your own brand and all that.

You can really find a path to success.

It’s like a bedroom musician.

You’re working with the tools that you have, and then self-promoting yourself, and it just becomes more and more common nowadays.

That is just a way to break in like that.

That’s right.

So when you’re looking at a self-publishing composer’s music, what is it you’re looking for to be able to discern, like, this guy’s the real deal?

Is there something, is it the way it’s presented in the notation?

Are you focused more on the musical ideas?

What are the things that you prioritize?

Well, I think it’s a lot of different things.

A lot of it has to do with how it looks on the page, because they care for their music.

That’s a first impression, which is always, we know first impressions are, you can’t do a second one of those, so that’s important.

Yes, exactly.

And then it’s like, what kind of attention is it receiving?

And then when you look at the music, for me, it’s like, how does it make you feel, right?

When you’re actually looking and going through the music, is it like, is this a unique voice?

Is this something we’re looking for?

Is this something special?

And like Scott always mentions, the cream rises to the top.

Yes.

You can notice these things and then become a parent.

Yeah.

I mean, we certainly know what works in the different markets for choral education, certainly.

But who’s pushing the envelope and how is that working to be received in the marketplace and how is it changing and evolving?

That’s where self-publishing is really valuable to kind of see the test market for those types of ideas and how can we release that at scale.

And our choir singing, is it being performed somewhere?

Is it, does it get a performance here?

Does it get a performance at another convention or a festival?

And is it on social media or people following it and getting excited about it?

Because you know you have, if they have an audience already, then we know as a publisher that that audience is going to come over and look at us too.

Something that happened unique this year, talking about changes from the last time, JW.

Pepper has pulled I think nine different charts from Arrange Me into their reading sessions at ACDA over the course of their two or three sessions or whatever they have.

And so that tells you right there that there’s really great writers that are self-publishing excellent quality work that is getting noticed and sung and performed and finding a platform and an audience.

It’s exciting.

So that’s an interesting point because I think with choral music and its reception, it’s sort of a chicken or the egg thing, which comes first.

I’ve had a lot of music that’s been self-published and done nothing and then gets put on a list and all of a sudden it starts selling.

And it’s like the quality of the music didn’t change.

It’s just that nobody was finding it.

Right.

And so in my mind, there is like I feel like the choral industry right now is super reliant on tastemakers, influencers, gatekeepers, whatever you want to call it.

Maybe you have a term for it.

I don’t know.

Those are all great terms.

Yeah.

We see it too.

But I mean, like if you ask any director, like where do you find your music?

It’s my peers, what are they singing on their concerts?

And it’s, you know, editor’s choice, it’s festival list, it’s reading sessions.

And so the thing that everybody listening is probably dying to know, how do I get my music on one of those things?

How do we get my self-published music on one of those lists?

Because for a lot of choral directors, until it has that sort of stamp of approval, they’re not really going to take the time to go through it.

Yeah.

What I do see is social media as a use.

You know, we see all these different, I’m a choir director, Facebook groups and other things like that.

And people will say, hey, I’m looking for a piece about this topic.

Or I’m looking for something from my seventh-grade choir, that’s this voice saying that covers this theme in my concert.

And a lot of people will recommend their own work.

And there’s no shame in doing that.

And I think in some cases, it’s, hey, check out my piece.

Here’s a link to it.

And that’s kind of a grassroots way, I think, of doing it.

But that’s another avenue in that we didn’t see a whole lot of even five, ten years ago.

And it’s sort of expanded the reach of what kind of music people are looking for.

Because if you want a certain ensemble or want a certain theme or something, someone’s writing it.

Someone’s doing it.

And there’s no shame in it.

No, and self-promotion.

And I mean, every social platform now has like a shorts or like a small, medium feature, quick bites of your music, whether it’s TikTok, whether it’s reels or whatever.

So you can get a taste of that.

I mean, I know our attention spans are just so short nowadays.

90 seconds, I mean.

Yeah.

But I mean, it’s really the way a lot of people peruse and look at music and sort of get it out there.

Well, to put up just a piggyback on that topic, I mean, you can’t just publish something on a range VM, let it sit and then expect it to do anything.

Right.

Right.

I mean, you’ve got to do the work as a self-publisher.

I mean, Hal Leonard for decades has been promoting things that we publish, right?

So, that is the model as a self-publisher.

You’ve got to hustle.

You’ve got to make connections.

You’ve got to invest some time and energy, even if it is just a social media account, where you’re getting it in front of people, trying to make connections locally to choirs and music educators in your sphere of influence.

Start somewhere.

You can’t just pull up in a bedroom and put it out there and expect it to, I don’t think Billie Eilish and Phineas just put something on Spotify and just expected it to do something.

They were out there hustling and playing in front of people.

So to chase the analogy a little further.

There’s literally in their bedroom, right?

I think that one was in the closet.

Yes.

And the point is well taken.

But I also want to ask, Hal Leonard is sort of a publisher of all this stuff.

I mean, you’re collecting a royalty on music that arrange me sells.

So why wouldn’t Hal Leonard be interested in promoting and pushing that music as well?

Yeah.

Well, I mean, we are.

I mean, we’re interested in promoting anything that we think will sell, right?

There’s only so many hours in the day.

There’s only so many marketing budget dollars.

That’s why I’m working with JW.

Pepper for some of these select titles to expand that opportunity for marketing and visibility is exciting.

Then it’s beyond what we can do as our marketing department.

We’ve got so many priorities.

So it’s not really a formal process at this point, like integrating the arranging stuff with the Hal Leonard umbrella.

No, not super formal at all.

But when something does hit and spike, which happens by traditionally print published stuff or self-published title, we’re going to try to ride that wave for sure.

Yeah, we’ve got to get on that train.

Yeah, without a doubt.

So the other big topic that we hit on the last time we did this episode was just the return to normalcy from COVID.

ACDA in Cincinnati was the first big thing that felt normal after the pandemic.

There was no masks.

Everyone was in the same room, the convention center there.

Do you feel like we’ve returned to pre-COVID normals?

Are we finally past that?

Because it sort of felt to me that the industry was really cooking and then everything tanked with COVID.

It’s been kind of struggling to get back to even that starting point.

Are we there yet?

Are we still working on it?

It’s a new normal.

So what’s different about it now?

Well, the things we could rely on to be like like a hot Disney property coming out and be like, boom, this is going to be a huge mega seller, like, not necessarily anymore, because tastes change and different things happen.

There’s different ensembles, you know, people’s ensembles have been built back the way they have.

They haven’t had students, you know, going up to those theater programs because they were waifes or so on.

So it hasn’t been this trajectory of up.

It’s been more of like a roller coaster back to that area.

So it’s just a new normal that we’re adjusting to.

I think overall, it does trend upwards, but it definitely is a less heap of an upward trend than we all anticipated it would be.

Yeah, or hoped.

Yeah, for sure.

Like, okay, we’re going to do this.

Everyone’s going to be fine, and we’re all going to get back in the choir room, and we’re going to sing, and nothing will have changed.

And that was three.

I mean, so many people were just clinging on to that because you had to cling on to something.

But I mean, you know, when students don’t sing for two years, they lose those two years of learning.

And so they come back and they’re not at the same level they were comparatively from two years ago.

We see it on the church side, especially.

There’s an exponential loss that takes longer than two years to recover from.

Oh, for sure.

And so, yeah, yeah.

Well, I think it was just last week was the five-year anniversary of when the NBA shut down.

That’s for me was like the oak.

This is for real.

Yeah.

Two weeks and we’re already over.

Right.

Do you think there’s anything that’s better now?

Do you think anything has come back in an improved way?

Because we had to re-evaluate things and embrace technology in a different way.

I know some composers, I was talking to the PAD brothers earlier and they were talking about how they made a lot of discoveries about certain types of music that were needed because they had to approach it differently, because everybody was virtual for some time.

I would say just in a really macro sense, I feel like people, really general here, are being more deliberate about what they’re deciding to do or what they’re spending their money on or where they’re going.

I just feel like everyone’s being more thoughtful about that because they have to be, or they’re being forced to be because of what all happened.

I would say that that’s true for a publisher too.

We have to be more intentional and much more careful about where we spend our resources and trying to have more wins than losses.

There was a day not too long ago where we were comfortable with a certain amount of misses.

It’s just part of the deal.

But boy, we have to be a lot more careful to make sure that those misses are minimized as much as possible.

Is that because the hits are not as big as they once were, or is it just because of the perception of the brand?

I don’t know.

I think I would think about it more like we can’t afford to take a risk on things that we are a little less sure of.

So from a content perspective, it’s about intentionality.

And maybe doing small tests where it’s a limited risk as opposed to just going all in and saying, oh, whatever, we’ll see how it shakes out.

We really can’t do that anymore.

But until the Swift comes out on the new record, that’s a pretty bankable property, right?

We know we can sell a whole lot about it, especially with the hits and the singles.

Wicked.

Wicked.

That’s a big gift.

I think it is at this.

So we’re riding that way.

Those are slam dunk.

So we just need more things like that and they’re going to be fine.

Yeah, exactly.

Right.

But it’s not all like that.

Yeah.

And so that’s where the choral team’s job is to come in.

We work together to make sure that, okay, how do we make the right choice?

Well, and that brings up an interesting point because as you say, the things that are most reliable in terms of setting expectations for sales, it’s those big properties everyone recognizes, the Taylor Swift, the Wicked.

You know people are going to be interested in that.

But at least in ACDA, those kinds of things are probably not what they’re most interested in finding.

True.

Right.

They’re looking for concert music, they’re looking for oftentimes really unique things.

We were talking to somebody in the booth earlier that was looking for it.

We need a piece for quiet orchestra that is all about the word piece.

Right.

Looking specifically for things that had that in the text.

As a composer, what do you think composers could do better to present their music or explain their music in a way that excites people?

Because I think that’s one of the hardest things to do.

I write a new piece, I feel great about it, and then when I say it in words, it doesn’t sound that cool.

It sounds like every other piece that’s ever been written.

It’s like, well, this one has an organ.

It’s got this cool section where the voices do two different things at the same time.

You know what I mean?

When you try to explain it in words, it doesn’t come across.

You somehow have to show it or try to convey how it’s, like Luke was saying earlier, how is this piece going to make you feel when you sing it?

How will it make your audience feel when they hear it?

When they leave that concert space, what emotion are they taking with them?

Yeah.

And that’s hard to quantify.

I know it is.

It’s true.

And you said in there, what can composers do better?

I think composers are writing better than ever.

Nowadays, with interesting techniques and unconventional languages and cultures and everything.

So it’s honestly, I think it’s been better than ever.

A lot of conversations I’ve had with composers writers here have been about diversifying the amount of stuff they do, which is like a combination of copyrighted songs and this super experimental thing for children’s choir and this and that.

And they’re all wanting to do that.

It’s like, what’s all the breadth of composition that I can actually do?

And they’re doing more than ever.

And that’s cool.

What instruments can I add that haven’t been necessarily combined before together?

What different timbres and sounds can I make to make this piece unique?

Yeah, yes, yes.

Well, and I also, I get this sense from publishers that everything normal has already been done, right?

Like you already have all that stuff, so you’re looking for what’s unique and interesting.

Music is finished.

Like if I came to you with another piece about the sky is full of stars, you’d be like, okay, well, we’ve got that already.

Apologies to anyone writing music about stars.

But there’s certain things that have been done over and over and over in the industry.

But then it’s sort of, again, with the expectations game, right?

If you write something new and unique, publishers might also be like, well, I don’t know how this is going to do.

And so they might not embrace it because of that.

And so I feel like we hear it both ways from publishers, not just Hal, but other people too.

It’s like, you know, we want to be sure it’s a hit, but also we want it to be unique and exciting.

It’s something people have never seen before.

Sure.

Yeah.

And publishers look at things differently.

I mean, each publisher knows their catalog, knows their writers, knows their need.

So a piece may be stellar, but it doesn’t work with a certain publisher for various catalog or content reasons.

It might work great with another publisher.

So part of that is just keep trying, try to find the best publishing home for it, as we like to say.

Yeah.

And I mean, we’re always looking at our own catalog too.

Like how many versions of The Dover Verbatim we have, how many versions of The Christian Mass, how many settings can we have of a certain thing before it’s just-

You start competing with yourself.

Right.

Exactly.

What’s the answer?

I don’t know the answer.

searchhaler.com.

Do we hit a number and then we’ll say, oh, that’s it, no more.

Well, to answer your question a little different way, and loop back about Rangeby, as a composer, if you’re experimenting and you really feel confident in the work that you’re doing, you have the ability to get it out there and promote it.

So to establish that track record to where you start making some noise, the larger publisher, us or whoever, will be forced to pay attention.

So you become your own taste maker in some ways.

If you’re writing work that other people are interested in performing and singing and studying and all that, at some point, there is a tipping point where it becomes scalable, instead of just something for a specific group, for a specific time, because there is a difference in that music.

Music for one person or group, as opposed to music for the masses.

So do you still think it’s important for composers to put themselves in a box and write for a specific ensemble type or a specific genre?

I feel like in the past, that certainly was necessary for promoting yourself.

But what I’m hearing is that maybe publishers are more open to composers writing different styles and different types of music.

I would certainly say it’s trending that way.

Yeah.

I mean, I don’t know if I could put any one of our arrangers that’s come on board or writers in the past five, 10 years be like, oh, they’re only doing this.

They’re only doing this or they can’t do that.

Yeah.

I mean, they may not be known for a certain genre, but that’s no reason why not to pursue that genre.

Yeah.

Right.

What do you say?

Well, and I’ve been thinking lately, what’s a comparable industry outside of the music business that might have some parallels.

I’ve been thinking about just the book publishing industry.

Right?

Because you have the same thing there with digital and print and you have independent authors and published authors.

Right?

And in that industry, if Stephen King was to write a wrong thing, do you know what I mean?

What does he do?

I don’t know.

Maybe it would be successful.

Maybe.

But people would not react to that, I think, positively because they want a certain thing from him.

And he is popular because of that thing.

Right.

And so I want to-

He’s probably writing a lot of wrong coms.

Yeah.

Maybe he’s King Zebra.

Maybe he’s King Maybe.

This stream is always telling you.

We’re breaking news here.

Yeah, exactly.

You heard it here.

Right.

But I think it’s a serious question that composers grapple with.

Sure.

Because.

Well, I think that only you can answer that question for yourself.

Yeah, that’s why we’re here.

Like, if you do one thing really, really well, keep doing it, first of all, right?

Right.

But if you feel a passion to pursue something else and you feel like you can learn it well enough to write for a marketable market, for that section of composition that you haven’t done for a while, then go for it.

There’s no reason.

I mean, I don’t play a string instrument, but I can write a symphony orchestra.

Like, I can write for an orchestra piece.

I can orchestrate a piece, but I don’t know how to bow a violin.

Physically, I can’t.

So it’s about what you’re passionate about.

Also, my orchestrations are mediocre at best.

So it’s not a self-belief like the example.

Well, and you mentioned talking to the pods, and the pod brothers, Matt and Adam, have carved out a certain voice.

When you hear a pod brother’s arrangement of a pop song, it’s got a certain feel to it.

It’s got a certain voice.

It’s got a vibe.

It’s been their signature.

And they would be wise to continue writing music in that vein because it’s proven popular.

But they wanted to start doing Zydeco, whatever, in a certain thing.

It’s like, well, that’s high church, mass composition.

You got to follow the money.

You follow the money.

Follow your heart.

But if the money follows the heart, then you’re set.

There you have it.

Well, not for nothing.

I mean, the masters, Mozart, Beethoven, they didn’t make nothing.

I mean, they got paid for the music they wrote.

So that was the commercial music at the time.

It just kept writing.

It was a living.

So this has been happening a long time.

That’s a good point.

Yeah, for sure.

All right.

So let’s get deep and philosophical.

I did some Googling before I came here.

Always a dangerous thing.

Hal Leonard’s selling close to half a million titles at this point online.

Choral arrangements or compositions of various kinds.

So theoretically, we could shut everything down today, stop selling new music, and there’d be enough pieces of music out there that every choral director could do new music on every concert for the rest of their life and never be bored, but publishing could theoretically just disappear.

So why do we need new choral music when we have so much already?

I saw that question on the sheet and it’s like, do that to any cultural or entertainment industry.

Should we stop just making movies?

We got 500 million movies out there.

You don’t need that 26 card, you have 25, right?

Who are we to tell people to stop making art?

Right.

I don’t think we should, but I do think-

No, I know.

I have a question.

But I think I’ve had the conversation before with choral directors.

Why would I commission a piece of music when I can go buy it for three bucks or whatever?

And so I think for some people, there is not an understanding of just what you get with a new commission piece of music, that you don’t really understand until you do it.

Until you do it, yeah.

How many lives you touch, like how important it is for the composer, how important it is for the parents of the students in the choir who are hearing it for the first time.

Or the ensemble for whom the piece is commissioned.

Yup, just a domino effect of so many different facets.

Just the ability to create new art.

I mean, like Luke is saying, the passion doesn’t stop, and the creativity and the drive to create doesn’t stop.

So there needs to be an outlet for that in some way, shape or form, whether it’s through dimension or self-publishment.

Humanity is going to create.

Yeah.

We’ve done it from the start and it’s just-

It’s got to be a place for it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Good luck trying to bottle that up.

It’s still a lot to go.

Yeah.

Like I said, it’s deep, it’s still a lot to go.

And that kind of goes back to the earlier point about how do you, how do you explain what your music is and what it means, right?

I think the composers that are really successful are the ones that are able to articulate that, right?

I wrote this piece because, you know, I had this important message I wanted to share, or, you know, there was a need that I’m trying to fill, right?

Like, I think, like to your point earlier, choral directors are very interested in the text and finding something that, like, everyone wants to be in their feelings, right?

It’s all about having a meaningful text, music that means something, and not just, you know, artificially, you know, AI generated choral music, right?

Sometimes it’s the music itself, when you combine that with the meaningful text that just elevates everything, it’s that goosebump moment.

I mean, and we’ve all experienced that where, and you can’t put your finger on it, explain what it is.

Is it this chord?

Is it the melodies?

The progression?

Is it the way it’s harmonized?

But there’s something magical that happens and gives, and gets that emotion.

Oh, absolutely.

You just can’t bottle that up.

It either happens or it doesn’t.

And one of our newest choral editors at Hal Zach, Zachary Moore, is a composer himself and has published at other publishing houses outside of Hal Leonard.

And he is, he was inspired by the birth of his son and wrote this piece and the story behind it and the feelings.

I mean, it just, it brings so many emotions to the table when you see his joy for how he wrote it and hearing it be performed.

So it’s just, I mean, it comes from a place.

And it’s beautiful.

And I think when choirs and directors know the story behind the piece as to the why, that’s conveyed to the people making the music and they communicate that message and how they present the music.

And that’s where that emotion comes from.

Yes.

Yeah.

Music is, remember it’s a language, right?

So we all communicate in this language that we all share, but it taps into that thing that’s just ethereal.

You can’t really quantify it.

And to convey emotion, that’s transcendent.

And so that’s why we create, right?

Is to continue to have a voice to communicate in this language that we’re so passionate about.

It’s hard to turn that off, man.

I think you can’t.

It’s a respite, right?

I don’t think you can turn it off.

Yeah, yeah.

It’s the truth.

So, something that I’ve been thinking about lately, and kind of having trouble reconciling, is the fact that every choral musician recognizes that feeling that you talk about, the goosebumps.

And they all, like, everybody has some memory of an important moment, either singing a piece or listening to a choir.

Yet, at the same time, it does feel like, you know, when we get talking about the business side of things, there is a total disregard for what it takes to bring that kind of music into being, right?

And there, I feel like it manifests in a couple of different ways, right?

But I think you have, for example, choral directors who only buy the minimum, you know, number of copies, because they know they can get away with it.

Or like school districts that will provide the 250 a student to buy a new piece of music.

You know what I mean?

And I have trouble with the fact that a lot of the times in these situations, it’s our fellow musicians that are not recognizing the monetary value in what we do.

So how, like if we can’t convince them, how are we going to convince the faculty and the principals and the administration and the parents, you know?

So is there something I’m missing?

Have you found the way of really communicating both the artistic value but also the economic value of choral music?

I think a lot of it, you know, and some of it, like you say, is a disregard, but I think a lot of it is just not being informed.

I don’t know if people necessarily intentionally go out to do that, to buy the minimum and make their copies, but we just have to keep educating the public, educating people that this is just not acceptable.

Well, yeah, and Scott, I mean, he gives sessions all the time about copyright and the proper way to do things, and he remarks about how the enthusiasm everyone to hear, so here’s the right way to do it.

Yeah.

Yeah, because people want to do it.

Yeah, I’m so glad I know how to do this properly.

I didn’t know I could make, we’re non-profit, I could make that copy.

Well, no, I didn’t know that.

Now I do.

But I’m sure we all have stories of like when we were in elementary, high school and our choir director was like, here’s a copy of this or something and I mean, we’ve all encountered this way before the digital age as well.

Yeah.

It’s been a-

Collect photocopies that were on the blues, your rocks machines or whatever.

Yeah.

But I’m really glad.

Go ahead.

We’re being more intentional even on our Hal Leonard website just to say it is expected that you are buying a number of copies to properly outfit your entire ensemble.

It’s just there just as another way to inform people that this is what the industry expectation is.

So hopefully that-

Yeah.

The only thing I can add is the intersection of art and commerce.

These are two diametrically opposed things.

Sure.

These things could not be more polar opposite.

Well, we have to put them together.

We do.

So there’s always tension, always.

You go too far one way, well, you’re not going to be able to monetize it, but if you go too far the other way, well, then all the creativity gets sucked out.

So there’s something in the middle that we try so hard to find that balance and that optimal place in the center where it’s legitimate, it’s inspiring, and it’s marketable and consumable, and people are willing to pay properly for it.

So that’s, I mean, I guess that’s a summary of what we do every day, not just in the world, but in the music business anywhere.

It’s a tough, tough line to navigate down.

Well, and maybe you could also talk about just how many different ways that 250 gets split up, right?

Because I think there’s this, some people have this impression that like, oh, all that money is going to Roger Emerson or whatever.

He’s just getting rich off of this.

Right?

I mean, yeah, there’s the editor, the engraver who puts it on the page, the way we record it and market it and create the cover.

And I mean, it’s just…

The print cost, all these things.

The duplication, everything.

Yeah.

There’s so much that goes into it.

So many people.

Yeah.

Well, and the fact that the publisher is the one that owns the arrangement, ultimately, you know, it’s not us.

We don’t own arrangements of, you know, Bruno Mars tunes or Taylor Swift tunes or whoever, you know.

And Roger is the creative master that cover, you know, Mac or whoever, is to kind of put that and shape it into the thing that we can present to a high school choir or college choir, you know, to be able to present and perform.

So, you know, it’s hard.

Yeah.

Well, and that’s my, I guess, shameless plug for go find a composer and commission something, because they’re getting, if they’re lucky, 10, maybe 15 percent off of the sale.

And so you’ve got to sell a lot of copies of Silent Night to be able to make a significant amount of money off of one piece of music.

But with the commission, you’re talking hundreds of dollars instead of tens, right?

And so in terms of supporting the art and supporting the community, that goes a long way in letting composers do what they want to do.

I can’t help throwing that in there.

But I think too, I think it’s helpful to compare it to other costs that we don’t think about, right?

My argument to teachers is always like, if you tell the kids parents they got to bring five bucks, they can have pizza at the after school, whatever.

Everyone says, okay, they turn in the money, not a big deal, right?

Why would it be any different to ask five bucks for a piece of music that they’re going to use all semester and learn from?

Pizza is something you eat once and it’s gone.

Just because it’s food and because we want to be alive, people just accept the cost of food.

But I think there’s a lot of things that administration is willing to pay for without thinking about, parents are willing to pay for.

They’ll give you 20 bucks for a t-shirt, no problem.

But then it’s like, why is it a struggle sometimes to get that music?

Well, it’s a struggle to avoid arts programs being sure.

The sheet music is the textbook for the music department.

That’s why we’re going to do the Hal Leonard Cookbook, right?

Yes.

Because if we have food and music, then it’ll be fine.

I really appreciate y’all sitting down for this conversation.

It’s always good to get insight into what happens on the commerce side of things.

Because I think in these sorts of settings, most of what gets talked about is the art, as it should be, right?

There’s the creation and the execution and all of that.

But if we don’t have a healthy business to support it, then ultimately I think that’s going to be detrimental to the industry.

So why don’t we end with this?

Do you have a favorite choral memory you want to share?

It could be singing or watching the concert or something that you found and published that you’re super proud of and want to take credit for.

What do you got?

You want me to start?

Yeah.

You’re first on the couch to go for it.

Well, it was sort of the gateway into choral.

But when I was a freshman in my high school, I was pretty good piano player at the time, still play a little bit.

And I got asked by the concert band, and they were doing Eric Whitaker’s Ghost Train.

And my brothers were in the band.

They were upperclassmen.

I was a freshman.

I got asked to play the piano for Ghost Train.

And they hated it because I would walk in, and my brothers would be like, oh my god, Luke’s here.

He’s in our band.

I can’t believe it.

But it was my favorite introduction to Whitaker’s music, because I got to play with all the upperclassmen.

And then it sort of, I started, as everyone does and discovers Eric Whitaker’s music, and we start singing Sleep and Clavirsen and everything.

It’s like, oh my gosh, this is the greatest.

So my brothers hated it, but it was a wonderful memory for me, because I got to get introduced to it really early.

That’s cool.

You gave some good cred then.

The Class 2 was great, Freddie.

Yeah, got the cred.

So mine is a little more serious, I think, but I remember the year.

I think it was 2009 or 2007, whatever year we did ACDA in Oklahoma City.

Maybe it was 9.

And we, the piece Requiem, Eliza Gilkeason’s Requiem, and Craig Kelly Johnson’s series with us.

A stunning piece that I had the absolute privilege to serve as an editor on and work on that piece with Craig, and got that ready for production in its press.

And we sat at that ACDA at the Oklahoma City Memorial site.

And that piece was sung by Concebriary in front of all of us at that site, commemorating that terrible tragedy with that music and those words.

It was just the most unbelievable thing to listen to.

And for me, just to be able to see the work I had done on the page as an editor, and just making it ready for press, and then to hear that perform so perfectly in such an amazing place, I’ll never forget it.

It’s amazing.

So, yeah, I’ve got a couple, but I’ll tell you about one.

I came up through school as a choral student, sang in show choir in high school, found my way to jazz band, and then when I got to college, I was an instrumentalist, piano player, so I was studying commercial composition arranging in Nashville.

So I was there to learn how to write studio and all that stuff, but everybody was required to sing in the oratorio.

So I had a good fortune to have just be…

The timing was right, that Dr.

Tim Sharp was our oratorio course director at Belmont, and we did Pines Creation one semester, but the other semester, the mountaintop was Rudder’s Requiem.

And that…

I’m still emotional about it.

It is unbelievable.

And it was a mountaintop experience, and John Rudder himself came in and directed it for the show.

Wow.

And it was unbelievable.

And it taps into that ethereal thing that you can’t put words to, you can’t describe.

It was absolutely incredible.

And so, I mean, I was a choral student all the way through, and eventually found my way to instrumentalists, but boy, you know, I’m a singer at heart, and being in a huge bar like that, and singing at work of that importance and that beauty was unlike anything else I’ve ever experienced in my life.

So, that was a real mountain top experience.

Well, my thanks to the three of you.

This has been awesome.

Give us the shameless plug for Hal Leonard Choral.

Where can we find all the things?

Hal leonard.com.

If you’re listening to this and you can’t find Hal Leonard, I don’t know what to tell you.

It’s good checking out Hal leonard.com and our YouTube channel, which of course, we put all the scores with the audio on, which we work with amazing studios around the country to create these beautiful recordings.

We have a sacred YouTube channel and a school YouTube channel.

Absolutely.

Don’t forget that we’re linked to Sheet Music Direct with all of the digital scores, and Sheet Music Direct Plus and everything.

So there’s lots of avenues.

Choral mix for audio learning tracks and all that.

Lots of stem and learning track recordings coming down the pike.

So, exciting stuff in the hopper too.

Like Lance, we’ve got great content coming out.

Yeah, we sure do.

We’re very excited about that.

All right.

Well, we’ll see you in two years.

Thanks, Gary.

Thank you, guys.

See you.