67. Tommee Profitt’s “The Birth of a King” and the Composer as Producer

Tommee Profitt, welcome to the show.

Boom, how are you?

I’m doing great. It’s so awesome that you’re here. Kind of pinching myself I get to do this and even more fun that it’s in the studio.

Really a fan of your work. I actually discovered you first through a high school show choir that wanted to arrange one of your songs. They had found it on YouTube and they were like, this is what we want.

They wanted this big epic opener for their show. What was it? Gloria Ragali.

That was the first one. Then, of course, I went deep down the rabbit hole. As an arranger myself and as a trombone player, I appreciate all the bass trombone you do.

I played trombone in junior high.

There you go.

There are so many amazing trombone players doing things that are not trombone in the music industry. It’s really wild. Yeah.

I haven’t touched a trombone in probably 25 years, at least.

But I don’t know.

I have some theories on that. Maybe it’s just the personality of a trombone player. Maybe it’s just that you have to be super smart to work the instrument.

I don’t know.

Maybe.

I’m kind of the same way. I haven’t played a trombone in a decade, but I’m working in music every day. But I had become aware of you through YouTube and through all of the epic cinematic covers that you do, which of course I love.

Movie trailers was an interest of mine in my graduate work, so I’ve done some studying into that. I did my master’s degree here at Belmont, just down the street. And so I was on their email list for everything.

And so this email came across my screen for the live album recording for Birth of a King. And it doesn’t take much to convince me to buy concert tickets.

So I just bought tickets and I said, hey, you know, I told my wife, I’m like, hey, we’re going to go to this orchestra choir concert. And she was like, oh, okay. You know?

And then afterwards she was like, you didn’t tell me this was going to be good, right? It just blew our minds. So both of us went into it not having listened to the album, actually.

So the first time hearing the songs was at that Fisher Center concert. And it was just like, what is this? You know?

And I kind of think I have a hard time describing my personal tastes in music to my friends and things. And so now I just play them Tommee Profitt. I’m like, whatever that is, that’s what I like listening to.

So I think that brings up an interesting point, though. Your music is hard to describe to people that aren’t well versed in orchestra and choir and movie trailers and all these things.

How would you describe it to somebody who doesn’t have that musical background, a normal person, if you will?

4:53

Cinematic Sound

That’s a good question.

I was hoping you could help me figure out how to describe it. Yeah, it is weird. Everything I do naturally is cinematic in tone.

And I don’t try to do that. I think it’s just what happens. Every song starts with two piano notes and then grows to this massive climax.

It’s like really dynamic. So whether it’s cinematic or epic or, you know what I mean? Like it used to be more trailer sounding, I think.

I was doing a lot of trailer stuff. But then I think I just found ways that we, you know, if it’s just piano and strings and it’s beautiful, but it still grows and crescendos into something dynamic. I think I just want to put emotion back into music.

Maybe that’s it. Like, there’s a lot of music that has no emotion in it, right? And it might be a vibe, it might sound cool, or this loop with that drum beat and this chorus saying over it, it’s like catchy on top 40 radio, you know?

But like, I don’t know, I want people to like feel something. And I feel music when I play it.

And there’s so many things that you can, you know, put that kind of emotion to, like for that Birth of a King, it was like, let’s take the story of Jesus being born. It’s usually some kind of Sunday School story.

Let’s put weight to it and emotion to it, make it sound like a Lord of the Rings type movie, like the grand and vastness of it, you know, the heaviness of the meaning and stuff.

So yeah, even if it’s a cover of the Beatles song, there’s still some emotion to suck out of some of these songs that are well known, you know what I mean? So yeah, I think that’s just how I approach music naturally. And that’s what happens.

Well, and you sort of live a double life, right?

You have your producer hat over here, where you’re working with different artists on their music, but then you have your own stuff over here. How much interaction between those two parts of your life is there?

Like, is it the same process for both, or is it a totally different thing when you’re working on your own albums?

Interesting question, cause I, yeah, I felt like it was literally a split divided life where I was doing trailer music and movie music, and then I’d work with an artist, and I would want to put some of those elements into their production, and I was

like, oh no, are they going to think that I just make everything sound cinematic? Like, I was kind of, when I first started, I was kind of self-conscious of that, and then I realized through some of those sessions that that’s why they were there.

They came to me because they wanted that cinematic sound in their productions. You know what I mean? So once I realized that, I was like, oh, yeah, you want strings, you want whoosh bangs and trailer hits when the chorus comes in.

You know what I mean? And so it kind of freed me up to kind of put more of a branding on my productions, even for other people.

But yeah, I would say slowly over the years, I was able to do less and less of that and pour into my own projects and my own music, because that was the stuff I was always, I became more passionate about pouring into that, I think, over time.

So I’ve kind of slowly shrunk that basket into only a couple of things. And besides that, I’m just mostly pouring into my own stuff.

Which is awesome. I mean, that’s the goal, right? For all of us.

Yeah.

No, it’s a dream. I’m very thankful and I just have a lot of fun.

And I love that there’s really, it’s a very untraditional artist route to do that, where I don’t have to worry as much as a traditional artist who releases an album, and they have an album cycle, right?

It might be a year and a half, and they tour it and they have to think about radio and singles and then they have a time off and they’re doing interviews and it’s all about that album and then they write and that, you know what I mean?

That’s like a traditional artist route. I kind of just make whatever and put it out without so much like weight behind week one numbers and like these metrics and these stats. I don’t go to radio.

I don’t tour. I don’t have to do that stuff. You know what I mean?

It’s more, it can be creatively led only.

And if I want to make something that I know won’t perform as well, I’m not afraid of that, because I’m like, creatively, I wanted to make that piano instrumental that might not do as well as that cover or that album.

But like, I just wanted to do that that day. You know what I mean? So I think I’m kind of chasing that now.

I just turned 40 like last year.

I feel like that’s kind of my new thing is just like preaching even to other people to really like, when you lead with the creative stuff first over what you think will work, I think it’s just, there’s more fulfillment in that. You know what I mean?

So figuring out a way to bring that to the top more, I think is important.

There’s so many people working on things that fry them and drain them and they’re not passionate about it and they’re like miserable and like, first of all, we’re working in music at all. That’s a dream job. That’s what we dreamed of our whole lives.

Why did we want to do music? Because we love it. It’s fun.

We’re passionate about it. You know, so I’m sorry, I’m on one right now.

I think it’s important for people to like work on things they’re passionate about and lead with that and say, sometimes say no to something that might sound like a good opportunity, but you’re really not going to be happy doing the work.

That doesn’t make sense.

Yeah, no, it totally does. And I think you bring up that tension between like what composers know has already been successful versus like the new creative thing that they’re trying.

Like a lot of times people limit themselves because they think, oh, they’re not going to like this. They’re not going to want this, right?

Like the way I look at it or the way it’s been explained to me, right, is that there’s already so much normal music out there. And so if you’re just going to try and do more of the same, you’re not going to get any attention, right?

But if you’re going to come in with something original and creative, like that’s how you make your mark.

Yeah. And not everything is going to work, obviously.

Sure.

That you try. But taking those risks, there’s been very pivotal moments in my life and career where it was like, this is super risky.

Doing that live Christmas show that first year when we recorded it and filmed it, and had never done it live before with, that was a risky thing. I was like, this might not work.

There’s lots of things that I think, I don’t know, it pays off to take some risk. It’s kind of like, what’s your risk tolerance? How many things are you willing to do?

And then one of these things will turn into a Broadway musical, and you had no clue, you know what I mean? Like, how do you know unless you try it?

But I mean, you kind of knew that this was going to be big, right?

True story. I hoped that the Christmas album would spread and just be heard, because it was my favorite thing I’d ever worked on.

But the show was a whole terrifying, like, the night before we announced that we were doing it and going on sale, like, no one knew, right? So I had everything lined up, but I didn’t tell anyone yet publicly.

And that night, we almost pulled the plug and didn’t do it, because everyone was like, who’s going to come? Are we going to even be able to sell tickets to this? Like, 30,000 things could go wrong.

This would, this is bad. If no one comes, you’re filming and the room’s empty and it’ll look really dumb. You’re going to have to pay an audience to come.

There were so many doubts and things in the air. I just had a really strong gut feeling of something I was supposed to do. All right, we’re going to do it.

And I just pushed forward and then it sold out in 24 hours and it blew us all away. And the way it’s grown, that was just three years ago, dude. That first show, not even three years ago, we did the first show.

So that was an unexpected surprise. Super thankful. It’s my favorite thing that I’m a part of, of anything.

But it wasn’t like, oh yeah, this is going to work and we’re going to keep doing it every year. And people are going to, you know, people travel to this show from all over the world now, countries and every state.

It’s like, there’s no way you could ever plan that or ask for that or make that happen. You know what I mean? It’s like, it’s just a crazy god thing.

It’s how I see it, you know?

Yeah. And of course, we, as soon as the Thanksgiving dishes are done, like we turn on Birth of a King now. It’s pretty much like, that’s basically almost all we listen to the months of November, December.

That’s awesome.

13:15

Album Genesis

Let’s dig into the music a little bit.

How did Birth of a King begin?

Birth of a King is actually a project I had wanted to do for 15 years. I didn’t know it was going to be called Birth of a King. I just wanted to do a Christmas album where I kind of reimagined all the songs.

And every year I was just too busy, waited too long, it was too close to Christmas. I’m like, oh shoot, I can’t do it this year. I’ll do it next year.

And I literally said, I’ll do it next year for 15 years. That’s why it was such, I think it was, it built up over the years.

I mean, once you’re 10 years into something saying, I’ll do it next year, like it starts to feel like, man, when I do this, this better, like, live up to what I’ve made it in my head now. You know what I mean? Yeah.

And so-

That’s the most relatable thing I’ve heard, by the way. I’ll do it next year for 10 years. That’s the most musician thing I’ve ever heard anyone say.

And the only reason I was able to, honestly, was in 2020, everyone, COVID hit and everyone had like, what is this?

Let’s all stay at home. And my calendar cleared and I was, it was like March, I think of 2020. And I was like, I’m gonna start that Christmas album, just see what happens.

And I just started playing around. I thought I would make it in a month and it ended up being like a six month labor of love, and it was a blast.

And while I was making it, that’s when I was like, man, I had this vision of doing a live show of it with the orchestra and the choir and all these artists. And I’m like, that’s obviously impossible, but what a cool vision I just had.

That was where it ended. I just didn’t think it would actually come to fruition. And the fact that two years later, we did it live, that’s still surprising to me.

You know what I mean? It’s the most fun part of everything I do, I would say.

So what’s your compositional process like? You’ve decided you’re gonna arrange, I don’t know, First Noel, you sit down at the piano, I assume.

For that album, that’s an awesome question. For that album, I made the song list first. I had never done that before.

I had 17 songs and I was like, all right, Away in a Manger, Silent Night, Oh Holy Night. I’m like, what am I gonna do with these? And I didn’t want to just change them to change them.

I really focused every song I dissected the words. What’s the story here? What does it mean?

What does the tone need to be to match that? And I had no clue who the singers or artists would be yet. I just played around and I was not allowing myself to be afraid of going a little wild on some.

You know what I mean? If I started doing something, I’m like, this is so cool, but no way would this ever, people would never swallow this, right? That’s too crazy.

Go tell it on the mountain, taking that and doing some minor hip hop dark gospel choir thing like I’m, but I just like heard these arrangements and I started falling in love with them.

And as I was arranging the songs, the style of the way it started to take shape, I heard a voice or an artist that would work perfectly on that arrangement specifically.

So then once I knew it was like, okay, Crowder would sound so sick on Go Tell Him On.

So then I’m like listening to his other songs and his range and his previous high notes and putting it in the key for his voice before he even knew that I was even thinking of him.

And I put the whole song, I literally arranged it around, what would it sound like if Crowder sang this? Luckily, I got to the end and I had 17 tracks of instrumentals and I hadn’t asked hardly anyone yet.

And I just went down the list and I started asking, I have this wild dream project I’m doing, orchestra, choir, 808 gospel choir and big dynamic singers. And every single one said yes. I didn’t have to go to a plan B on any song.

And that was like amazing. You know what I mean? That was like a dream come true that they all, I knew most of them, they were friends, people I’ve worked with before.

There were a couple artists that were like, hey, we’ve never worked together. This is our first introduction, but I knew that their voice would work perfectly.

So yeah, and then they came in and I pushed them all to sing the highest notes they’ve ever sung in their life. And they left feeling beat up, but they loved it. Now obviously they came back for more when they did it live.

And they do it live.

That’s the crazy thing.

Now they do it live, yeah.

That’s the crazy thing, because they get one shot and they nail it. Are you like jumping around from song to song as you’re writing this? Or are you like living with one for a week and finishing it and then moving on?

Or are you kind of like me and just scatter-brained it all over the place?

There was organization to my chaos up here, but externally I probably looked like I was all over the place. For six months straight, I got up every day at 5 a.m., went to the studio and worked until 5 p.m.

And I was just in my sweatpants, crazy hair, sticking up, sitting at the piano with paper everywhere and notes. And I’m just running all over. I just was planning.

I was on a mission, I felt like, you know what I mean? I was like, what is this song gonna be? What is this song gonna be?

Some came really fast. And one day I sat down, all right, angels, we have heard on high. Let’s explore ideas for that song.

And then it came, you know what I mean? I was really excited about it. Other songs did take a while.

I wrote a lot of courses for some of them because they felt like they were building up. And I’m like, this needs to have something here, but there’s nothing in the song. So I’m going to have to write something.

I’m going to need, you know what I mean? Someone that can sing that note now. And I almost wrote myself into these corners a little bit that way.

But yeah, dude, I think the one song that was the hardest, it took me weeks, was Oh Come All Ye Faithful. And because that song, I loved the, you know, the, oh come let us adore him, oh come.

I knew I wanted that breathy and soft in the beginning, but then the rest of the song, it just felt too old school, traditional, like the way it had always been done. So I knew I wanted to do something different with it.

And I kept recording tracks and erasing them and recording a whole track idea. And they’d be like, no, that’s not it.

I kept striking out and I was like, what is, and then I’m starting to get nervous because I’m like, we’re getting closer to the deadline to turn in a Christmas album to be out in time because Christmas is going to happen with or without me.

You know what I mean? It’s set for everyone. So I think I finally like reset and just like, okay, what if it’s something like, you know, I just got this beat and this piano thing.

And that’s when Sarah Reeves’ voice came to my mind. And I was like, man, she would over this. And that helped me write the arrangement with Sarah’s voice in my head.

You know what I mean? I almost used these artists’ voices to depict the melody or lyrics at times of what they’re singing. Like I’m using their voice to sing it in my head.

Does it make sense?

Yeah, totally.

It was the first time I had really done it to that level like that.

20:08

Production Philosophy

So how do you find the right key for a song?

What’s the trick?

I don’t know. I actually ended up raising the key on Mary, did you know, when Jordan Smith came in? Because I was like, are you going to be able to hit this?

And he was like, yeah, dude. And he was like, ah, like it was no big deal. I was like, oh, no, no, no, no.

We went up like five half steps, you know, and that made his voice is just high and amazing. So, yeah, I don’t know. Like, I didn’t want to sacrifice, like sometimes artists would come in and I’d be like, all right, here’s the key, here’s the song.

And they’re like, that’s really high. And instead of lowering it, I was like, but you can do it. And some of the, there was one note, I’m not gonna say what it was or who it was.

One note took 45 minutes just trying to hit it. But then like just right, you know? And then we nailed it and we got it.

And we’re so happy that we have that now, you know? So I like to, I like to push, like singers can actually do more than they think they can sometimes.

And a lot of times when producers are in the studio with an artist, they’re like, I don’t want to push, I don’t want them to be uncomfortable. I don’t want to push them. And they let them kind of just do what they do.

And that causes them to, which is great, you can be respectful. But it causes them to not stretch themselves and get something out of them. Sometimes that they’re thankful, you push them to get.

So there does need to be a little bit of back and forth, of like, what if we tried this? No, it doesn’t matter. We’re in the studio.

You can mess up. I don’t care if your voice cracks or if it sounds bad. Doesn’t matter, you know what I mean?

So, as far as finding the right key, there’s all those parameters that I’m thinking through all the time.

Do you have a favorite moment in the show?

No. The whole thing.

I know that’s impossible, but.

It’s like picking a favorite kid. Each song has a special place for me. So I literally love moments in every single song.

I wanted to, I was like, man, I want to personally, I want to make a Christmas album that I didn’t want to skip. Like I don’t want to make one and be like, I just like these two songs and here’s the rest.

Like I wanted to take intentional time on each one so that it was something I wanted to listen to. So when I played the album, I didn’t want to just skip that one. You know what I mean?

So that was important to me to do it that way.

What changes did you have to make to adapt it for the live show? I’m assuming you didn’t record a 100 piece orchestra for the album. This is during COVID, right?

Or did you?

The studio album is programmed MIDI. That’s how I do everything. So this was my first time.

I’ve done a lot of concerts in my lifetime. But this was my first time doing something this scale with a real orchestra. So even having the music made for the orchestra, I needed help to get that done by the conductor, Ben Blasco.

So he took all of my stems and my MIDI, and he organized it for all the parts to make sure that it all made sense for a 60-piece orchestra. We individually mic’d the whole orchestra. We mic’d the choir.

It’s crazy because you don’t know what it’s going to sound like until you’re done. You do the whole show and then you get the files, and you could be like, oh, that doesn’t work. That doesn’t sound good.

You know what I mean? Or it’s all buzzing. I mean, I had a great team of people.

They captured it amazingly. But yeah, I think that was the live drums in the room. I think someone said it this way.

I think the live version of that album is the ultimate expression of what it was meant to be.

And so I think people are leaning towards the live album over the studio album, because there’s just an energy in it, live, and the openness of the way it feels. You know what I mean? So did I answer your question?

Yeah, you did.

Well, and the amazing thing about that is I feel like, when we’re talking about epic music, right? A lot of the time, that stuff that could never be recreated in real life, you know, the swoosh bangs and the…

Yeah, yeah. So we had some of those things in tracks, obviously, playing with it.

And so when we did the studio album, we got to mix it where the organic live music was focused and mix in the trailer sound effects and the things that make it feel a little bigger to make it work on a recording. You know what I mean?

Yeah. But it was just really cool to see that come to life in a way that doesn’t… I mean, no one ever gets to perform like movie trailers live, you know, or anything like that.

So like to see that come together. And the fact that you didn’t cut any corners, right? Like you could have easily been like, we’re only gonna do 50 singers instead of 100, you know, cause we’re gonna save money or whatever.

And like, you just like throw everything at it. And it’s so sick.

Well, and everyone, part of the pull in the plug thing was, there’s a lot of competition, Tommee, at Christmas. You’re doing a show in Nashville at Christmas time.

Like this person has their residency, this person has their annual thing, like all these shows. And you know, we all kind of, as a team, we’re like, if we’re gonna come in, we have to, you have to come in big.

You have to come in with a 60 piece orchestra and a hundred person choir, 20 different artists, and do a different new thing that no one else is doing. Like, you know what I mean?

Or even just that, having 20 artists on a single concert is like the most insane thing I’ve ever heard. And you could probably, I mean, other than maybe LA or New York, like Nashville is like the only place you could pull that off, right?

Like, it’s so crazy. Cause each one of those artists could, you know, headline their own show, and they probably do.

I do think the difference in their minds, they’re like, I love that I can come out and I could only sing that song once. And one night they’re, you know, they just give everything they have.

So when they leave the stage, after their five minutes, I mean, everything was left out there. And they walk off, like, they look like, and they feel like they just did an hour and a half set.

There’s something to that, I think.

Yeah, because every song-

It’s just this constant stream of like, well, that was insanely talented, you know? And like, oh, now it’s time for something else.

You know, you go to a concert, and there’s like a moment in one song where that high note is held, and everyone has chills, and you’re like, that was a moment, right? And there might be one or two of those.

My goal and dream was like, what if every song had that moment?

Where you’re almost like, you can’t catch a breath because you’re just hit, hit, hit, song after song after song, where one artist does their strength and their peak pinnacle thing right there, blows you away, and then the next artist comes out and

It might physically kill them, to sing this whole album, start to finish.

Yeah, the stamina for something like that doesn’t exist, so that’s probably why it’s different singers on every song, too.

Yeah.

Well, that gets into something else I wanted to talk about, which is just the role of the sort of hybrid composer producer.

I think most composers, at least those who were traditionally trained as classical musicians, we are sort of taught everything but that. We almost do it backwards from the way you do.

We’re taught to write the music down and then hand it to humans to perform. You’re almost doing the opposite thing. You’re in the studio just playing stuff and putting it together and then giving it to the musicians.

Could you talk a little bit just about your educational background and then how you learn to develop all of those skills?

I started playing the piano by ear when I was like seven or eight. So, I would listen to songs on TV, commercials or theme songs, and just try to figure them out. Then really quickly, I started like, wait, I can come up with my own ideas.

Then I’d just write and record stuff. My parents were always super supportive, and we had a computer and my dad got a CD burner, and do you remember those CD sticker labels you could buy, and the CDR, the Memorex CDRs, and all that?

I was literally plowing through those, making my own albums in junior high and high school, and selling them at my school and my church, and all my friends, giving them out for $2 a piece or something.

I think my goal when I was younger was to make my name synonymous with music, so that when someone thought of, hey, we need a piano player, or we need this recorded, or this, they would just think of me, my name would be on their mind.

So I was just super driven my whole life to do that, working, working, making music. I’d sit in my parents’ basement for hours with headphones on and just MIDI tracks. I’m building MIDI tracks, you know what I mean?

That was just my love, my first love. So I think it got to a point where I was like, I should probably learn theory, and I didn’t know how much theory I knew. Because when someone said, do you know music theory?

I’m like, I don’t know if I do. I’ve never been told the terms, but I know what I’m doing when I play, you know what I mean? So it was interesting.

I mean, when I went to college, I did a dual degree in music theory and audio production, and the music theory classes just made sense to me pretty easily because I was like, oh yeah, that’s the five of the one.

I didn’t know how to call it that, but that’s why I know what key I’m in and what chords go in that key and all that stuff. So that was very helpful. I never could sight read piano really, but I just never really needed to.

I was never in an application where I had to put music down and just sight read it literally on the spot. I could put it in front of me and learn it and slowly work at it, you know what I mean?

Like, I did a lot of classical piano pieces in my childhood, and so I’m classically trained in that way, just not sight reading real time, you know what I mean?

So yeah, I think once I started doing that, and I just started, I’ve always just recorded at my house when I was a kid, in the studio, at college, at my house, when I got married, on my laptop, with my M-Box 2, do you remember those?

Like, I, you know, I had, I went through all those phases, and I think like anyone, a lot of people ask me about, like, you know, mixing and different elements of the process, and I literally, like, never went through, like, oh, this is how you mix a

kick drum, this is how you mix a piano, this is how you mix a vocal, there isn’t a right way to mix those things, you just, there’s, it’s preference. I like the kicks sound like this, I like it sound like this, you know what I mean?

And like, once you make a thousand songs, hopefully by the thousandth…

So that’s the answer, just write a thousand songs.

I was just gonna say, hopefully by the thousandth song, it sounds better than your first. Hopefully, if it doesn’t, then maybe you should consider a different career path.

Well, I think that’s the thing that’s so hard. I encounter so many composers that have great ideas, but then the way they’re presented isn’t good enough. The production of the demo doesn’t sound good.

And I know that if it was with a real orchestra, it would sound killer.

But that’s a hurdle for a lot of people, having to mix their own stuff or having to, like the whole hybrid production thing, choosing the right sounds and getting everything in the right place.

Well, it’s hard too probably for a composer like that because they don’t probably want to invest all their time into being a great producer because they want to compose. That’s what they want to do. They want to do the composition part.

They don’t want to spend all the time producing, not all of them, you know what I mean?

And so I think someone might need to partner with someone that they trust and know that does it well to help, they can be producing one piece while they’re working on another thing, keeping the juices going, I guess.

How would you define the term producer? Because I feel like that’s a term that gets thrown around to just mean whatever you want it to mean. It can be as simple as the guy who’s funding the project and sitting in the back going, good job.

Or it could be you meticulously choosing every sound and every instrument and putting it all together.

That’s how I would define it, but I agree with you. I think it’s defined by different people, different ways. There are people who don’t know music, they couldn’t even point to a C on this piano.

Yeah. But they’re standing in the room and they’re giving ideas and they’re taught, what if you do this? What if you play a little riff on the guitar?

They don’t know what that is, what chord it is or what. There are producers that do that. For me, it’s obviously, I just build the track from nothing until the final thing, making all the music.

A lot of the people I work with are brilliant lyricists, not as strong musically. Some of them are strong in both. You know what I mean?

So it’s fun to work with different people. And as a producer, you have to fill in the weakness in the room. I think you’re kind of the head, you’re the pilot of a session.

So if they’re struggling on lyrics, you sit down, pound out word for word on your phone next to them if that’s what’s needed. You know what I mean? If they got that covered, you start building the track, get them excited.

Like, you got to keep the energy going. Sometimes you’re the parent in the room. Sometimes you’re the therapist in the room.

Like there’s a lot of roles that you can find yourself in as a producer, you know? Working with people, naturally, and musicians at that, artists, and we’re all very, you know, sensitive and our highs are highs, our lows are lows.

We can, you know, have a lot of emotional instability. So, you kind of have to be the one, I think, to have it together in the room and just kind of remember the goal is to get this song done, move it forward and make something amazing happen.

You know what I mean?

Yeah, so when I listen to a lot of your music, I think like, wow, this sounds insane. I’m going to figure out like what it is and break it down compositionally. Like how did he do that?

Right? That’s how I just approach analysis in music, right? I listen to things, I try, you know, I transcribe it, I pick it apart and I’m often surprised because I’ll listen to something you’ve written and I’ll figure out like, what are the notes?

And I’ll realize it’s so simple musically, but then the production behind it is so, it’s the sounds themselves that make it so exciting, right? A lot of, like, a lot of the things for NF, for example, right?

These repeated patterns that like, from a technical music theory standpoint, not that difficult, right? You know, just eight notes or whatever. But then like the way the sounds are layered into it makes it into this whole different thing.

And I think that’s an example of how, like I think you’re one of the like best role models for what, like the modern composer needs to be, right?

But just the way you’re able to bridge the gaps between all these different styles of music and all these different production techniques.

But one I wanted to ask was like, what is your process for choosing those sounds and layering those sounds, knowing when enough is enough?

Like, how do you not just get totally overwhelmed by, okay, I’ve got a string line, now I have to listen to all 600 of my string patches and decide which ones work?

I’m so glad you asked that because that’s something I try to convey, and it’s not articulated the best, so bear with me, but you’re right.

When you have a string line, I could allow myself to go through 600 libraries, and which one is going to be the best? Then even at that, you’re like, wait, wasn’t there one back at library number 322?

Let’s go back to that and compare it with library 481. And then you have your top five, you’re not getting anywhere when you do that, right? You’re not getting anything done.

The same way, I probably have 1 billion snares on my hard drive. If I make a beat and I’m like, all right, I’m gonna listen to all 1 billion so I can choose the best one.

I have forced myself somehow to do some kind of weird detachment thing where I can’t allow myself to go there, because I would, and I’d be so OCD, I’d be working on the snare sound for 6 months. You know what I mean? Right.

So I kind of go through libraries and sounds no matter what it is, and when I find one that’s like, oh, that’s good, that’s cool, that works. I commit, I go for that, and then I move on to the next thing and I just keep layering that way.

So yes, could that song have turned out 20 different ways based on the sounds I found and I used? Yes. I happened to click on that folder and go down that trail, that rabbit trail, right?

And that path led me to this one sound. I could have gone and clicked on this folder, which would have led me to this sound.

It would have sounded different, but it would have just been a different thing, and I would have adapted and built the whole thing around that instead of around this.

So I try to almost just go and just keep going and get somewhere versus, all right, wait, let’s step back and look at every possible option. That is something that kills a lot of musicians and artists, like with their mixes even.

All right, mix number 68 just came in. Wait, let’s compare the pre with mix number 13. I said this earlier.

It’s like, let’s compare every mix. All right, I want what this one has combined with that one and that one. You’re just like, you open up this can that you cannot recover from.

You know what I mean? I mean that. So I intentionally have to, and I hope other people will as well.

Just like that string line, that sounds good. Would it sound better with another one? I don’t know.

Maybe it’s sound different. You could make things sound different forever. You could just keep changing mixes and it doesn’t mean it’s getting better.

It’s just changing. You know what I mean? So I like to just kind of, I don’t know, keep moving forward.

I’m like, that’s the sound that that song has. The next song, I get to explore the other folders and pick something from there. You know what I mean?

But I can’t go through all 30 terabytes of sounds and pick the one best and I just don’t have time. You know what I mean?

Oh, absolutely. And I think that’s one of the daunting things about composing in a DAW, right? Is because it could be anything.

And are you starting with like a go-to sound? Are you literally just picking at random? Like how do you approach it?

I have some go-to stuff like that if I know like, oh, that needs to be like Berlin strings are probably my favorite of all the string libraries in legato mode.

You know, I play each part on legato mode, three octaves of violins, three octaves of violin, two violas, cellos and go all the way down. So I have, I don’t know, 12 to 15 tracks of individual legato string lines that all go together.

That’s really fun for me to build that. And I love the way it sounds. And I layer solo, Berlin solo strings with Berlin ensemble strings.

So the solo kind of like has more presence, you know, and the ensemble makes it feel wider and bigger. So that’s kind of like, of course that would work. So sometimes I’m like, well, let’s try a different one.

Let’s write out these. And I can always swap them back if I don’t like it. You know, let’s use an Audio Imperia string library on this one and see what this sounds like.

And it just sounds different. If I use the same strings and the same piano and the same everything on every song, I think I would get a little bored. You know what I mean?

Because for me, it’s about the sound and the production too, not just the composition and the parts. So I want it to sound different when I release these songs. You know what I mean?

Yeah.

You know, I had a composer, a composition professor in college and we kind of butted heads a lot because he was a pencil and paper guy. You know, he’s like, you got to write everything pencil and paper.

Otherwise, you know, the computer is writing you and not the other way around, you know? And he was talking about me using Finale, right? So all of this stuff is like on a whole other planet.

But at the same time, like, I think there is some truth to his point, which is that like the technology that you’re using does influence the way that you write. And like the tools that you’re using and the sounds that you’re using.

How do you make sure that your ideas are the ones that are getting put into the recording and not just like whatever happens to come by?

There’s different ways that you approach recording or writing or doing something. And you know, it’s like some people say like, what do you write first, the lyrics or the music? It’s like, well, it depends on the song.

I’ve done both. I’ve done melody first, I’ve done chords first, I’ve done sounds first, lyrics.

And so when you sit down, if I have a very specific idea in my head and I know what it is, like I’m gonna find a piano that sounds like this in my head and I’ll search through a few and find the one I’m looking for.

Other days, I might be like, I don’t really know exactly yet where this is going. Like the Christmas thing where I’m like, I’ll come away faithful. Where’s this gonna go?

It could be upbeat, it could be slow. I don’t know yet what I’m gonna do with this song. So I’ll go through sounds and just see what inspires me.

So to your point, what you just said is yes, depending on the piano patch that I pull up, I will feel something different from that.

If it’s a soft felt piano, I’m gonna naturally just play a different melody with it than if I pull up like this big, grand, bright sounding grand piano. And I’m gonna play differently because of the way it sounds when I play it.

So sometimes those sounds can change. Sometimes I’ll pull up like a spiccato cello thing and it’s real gritty and dark. And so I’ll play some arpeggiated dark minor thing with it that goes with that sound.

But if it was a cleaner sound, I might play something a little different or slower. You know what I mean? So I am inspired by sounds.

I think that’s why I’m addicted to sound libraries and I have so many. It’s like a never-ending vat of inspiration potentially waiting for me where I’m like, I’ll go through and I’ll see what I play when I hear those sounds.

So do you start with sounds first before you even have musical ideas?

Sometimes. It depends on what I’m doing.

That’s the answer for everything, I guess.

If you were to be like, sit down, just make a beat. I would probably pull up some sound library and just see where it goes, figure out what the tempo needs to be for that, then start putting the drums in.

I don’t start with the drums first, I start with the music and the melodic thing first. But yeah, so it really depends if you… You know, when I didn’t know it was coming, right?

I’m like, oh, make a beat, okay, figure some out. But if I’m like, I’m going to do a cover of Fix You by Coldplay. I’m like, okay, and I can already kind of know where I would take it and where I want it to go.

I’m going to start with piano and a soft string thing at the top, and then the cellos come in and then these big organ with a gospel choir. I kind of can visualize that before I even start making the production. You know what I mean?

Yeah.

43:22

Visual Content

I’m glad you brought that up because I did want to ask you, you have all of these covers and originals with really well thought out music videos. Is that something that you feel like is necessary for the commercial success of the music?

Are you just doing that because you’re an artist and it’s cool and you want to? All of those other things that seem to be beyond the music itself, how important are those to just the overall?

I’m laughing because my manager is in the room and we always have this battle of like, I just want to make music, but you got to promote your songs on socials and that whole war, I think is something that all musicians feel, composers feel it too.

It’s like, if you make just the music, sadly, you can make the most beautiful music in the world. And the way to let people know about it now is through social media content of some sort.

Yeah.

So some songs I feel like this would be amazing to have this big video for it. It needs that to sell it. Other songs are like, this was really fun, let’s just put up the artwork and say it’s out now.

You know what I mean? Yeah. But naturally, I do think the social media content, if it’s compelling content, like the clips of the live Christmas show every year, when we post those, they do extremely well because there’s so much to look at.

It’s this big stage with the orchestra and these singers belting these crazy moments. And the lights. Yeah.

And the lights, it’s very good content that’s selling this moment. But it would be interesting to see what would happen if we just posted the audio clip of that same part of the song, but no one’s on screen singing it.

It’s just the cover of the album and artwork or audio playing. You know what I mean? I don’t think it would be as engaging naturally, you know?

No, I think that’s pretty clear.

Yeah.

So yeah, it’s tough. It’s really tough. It used to not be that way.

It used to be like…

Well, I think that’s one of the hardest things for people starting out, is like they don’t have the budget to go film a music video. They barely could record the music itself. And now they have to figure out a way to create vertical video, you know?

Yep.

Because that’s the only thing anyone will watch.

I know.

That’s crazy how that converted, right? But I will say, I think people love just raw, simple, almost unedited… Sometimes I overproduce my videos where there’s glitches and swipes and all this crazy transition stuff.

And it’s like the videos that go crazy sometimes are someone sitting right here in the studio and they’re just… They’re not even playing, they’re just sitting here singing their song with the audio playing. You know what I mean?

Like having a face on screen, singing your song. Like I don’t think it has to be a big production music video. I think that’s very clearly declining as far as the impact that those have versus sometimes content on social media.

A 30 second video will have millions of views. You can make a $100,000 music video and it gets 800 views. That is discouraging, right?

That would make someone feel really bad, sick in their stomach. So it’s like, let’s try the free content first, work smarter, not harder kind of thing.

Yeah.

46:45

Artistic Voice

Well, I really appreciate you coming on the show. This has been very illuminating. I want to end with one final question.

What advice would you give composers that are trying to figure out what their artistic voice is? Trying to navigate this gap between what’s already been done and what is creative and original.

If somebody tried to make another Birth of the King, it wouldn’t work because we already have it. So there’s this tension always between, like you said, the safe choices and the creative ones. Sometimes I struggle with that myself.

It’s like if someone gave me a million dollars and said, go make some music, it’s like my first reaction would be like, I don’t know, what should I do with this?

What would you do if you were starting over again, and you were trying to break into the industry now in 2025? How would you decide what to write?

I think it’s super important that composers or producers or artists have a signature unique thing. Do you know how many people have wanted to sound like Billy Eilish, since Billy Eilish was Billy Eilish?

How many people wanted to sound like John Williams and Hans Zimmer? Think of the composers, and the ones that stand out are someone most of the time who have a sound or a thing that they do, and then it becomes everyone’s trying to do that.

This might fall back into the risk conversation we had. To stand out in all the noise today, you do need to have a lane and do something unique that stands out and it is risky, and it might not work. Maybe try a couple of different things.

But playing it safe isn’t always the best route, because you’re right, there is already a Birth of a King, and there is already these artists and these composers.

So most of the time, people, if they want Billie Eilish, they’ll go and listen to Billie Eilish. You know what I mean? And then when someone new pops up, they’re like, oh, that guy’s different.

That band is different. She sounds, that’s so unique what she’s doing. And those are the things, most of the time, I think, that filter to the top and cut through all the noise.

There’s so many artists and musicians now, like music makers on TikTok and Instagram, and millions and millions and millions. How can you even go through them all?

There’s probably some people, me and you, would love if we run across them randomly in our feed, we might never even hear them. That’s how many people make music now, is people that we would love that we’ll never hear or even know about.

Which sucks.

Yeah, it does. It used to be just like, there were 10 famous bands back in the day that everyone knew, and that was it. And everyone wanted to try to get their big break.

So we have all these resources and tools, which can be helpful, but the problem is they’re helpful for everybody. Everybody has them and everyone can do it.

So I do think, as I say that, the risk thing is like, sometimes people aren’t really doing what they want to do the most because they’re not sure if it would work.

Well, there’s artistic risk and then there’s financial risk, right? There’s the risk of like, will people like it? But then there’s also the risk of like, will this make money?

And sometimes people just only go towards that one thing where they’re just like, they’re just doing a service and they’re not, as a creative person, you know, it’s like, if you’re expending your creative juices on something that you’re not

passionate about, for whatever reason, that can suck someone dry. You know what I mean? Yeah. It’s like, it’s more important to like, sit in a room in your house.

No one knows about you. No one might ever hear what you’re doing, but you love what you’re doing. That’s more important than everyone celebrating this thing I’m doing over here, but I truly don’t enjoy it and it’s not my thing.

It’s just, it’s just a paycheck. It’s just a thing. I think when it’s just a paycheck, that’s a waste of a dream job that someone actually ended up getting themselves in and they could maybe do more with it.

You know what I mean?

Yeah.

So, I don’t know. It is a fine line you’re saying, financial risk versus just being creatively fulfilled. If there’s a way you can do both, even if it means a pay cut, it’s worth it.

Well, this is coming out in the holiday season.

Where can people find your music? Where can they find Birth of a King? What else do you have going on this season?

I got some things.

I always got things. I got a lot of secret things and projects I’m working on, but I’m excited to be adding to my Christmas stuff soon, which I’m very excited about.

I never thought I would do that, but I just had a few ideas kind of fall out of the sky, so I’m chasing those.

But yeah, otherwise on Spotify and YouTube and Instagram, Tommee Profitt, as long as you can figure out how to spell it right, you’ll find me. No one spells it right.

Well, thanks again. This has been great.

Yeah. Thanks so much.